Andrew Keating, CFO at Musgrave Group, looks back at his career progression and tells us the most important lessons he has learned along the way Tell us about your current role? What does it involve? I was appointed as the Chief Financial Officer of Musgrave Group earlier this year. We operate 12 food and beverage brands, including SuperValu, Centra, Donnybrook Fair and Frank & Honest coffee, and feed one-in-three people on the island of Ireland every day.  Through our partnership with entrepreneurial independent retailers, Musgrave Group is also the largest private sector employer in Ireland with over 40,000 colleagues.  My role involves partnering with our CEO, executive colleagues, and our Board of Directors to develop and execute Musgrave Group’s business strategy in line with our purpose: “Growing Good Business”.  In addition, I lead, motivate, and develop our finance team—and, very importantly, I aim to act as a role model for our values across the wider organisation. You have had a highly successful career. What do you attribute this to? I believe my career progression to date has been as a consequence of the value and leadership I have brought to the organisations I have worked with, for my colleagues, customers, and wider stakeholders.  Of course, strong and relevant technical skills are important, but I have also found that, as my career has progressed, these skills have really just become the “minimum ticket to the game”.  Equally important for me has been my investment in developing my leadership competencies in areas such as impact and influence, commercial focus, change management and inspiring people.  Developing these competencies to a decent level takes time, a lot of practice and a willingness to learn from your mistakes. It’s important, therefore, to start your journey as early as possible. I would encourage ambitious Chartered Accountants to compare the amount of time they have invested in their technical skills (through school, third level, if relevant, professional exams, CPD, etc.) with the amount of time and energy they have invested in developing and nurturing their leadership competencies.  What was the best career advice you ever received and why?  One piece of career advice that really inspires me is to bring your whole self to work every day. This contributes strongly to a trusting, inclusive and authentic environment.  So much of the value we bring to our organisations comes through our collaboration with other people—colleagues, customers, and wider stakeholders.  The more effective these relationships, the more valuable our contribution to the organisation will be, and the more successful our own careers.  What do you look for yourself when you are hiring? When hiring new colleagues, I’m drawn to individuals who, I believe, could have a long-term career with our company. I don’t tend to simply recruit for a particular vacancy or role.  Once I have determined that the individual can do the job on offer from a technical perspective, my priority is to understand their competencies and values.  I want to understand where they are on their journey in terms of developing an authentic leadership style, how they might contribute to an inclusive team environment, how they will collaborate with colleagues, customers, and other stakeholders, and if their values are consistent both with the values of the organisation and my own. You can read this article and more about your career in accountancy in the Accountancy Ireland Career Guide 2023.

Investing time and effort in networking can help young professionals to develop important relationships and progress faster in their careers. Sonya Boyce explains why Networking is defined, broadly speaking, as: “the action or process of interacting with others to exchange information and develop professional or social contacts”.  When we think of networking as a transactional, one-sided, and artificial relationship, however, it can make us feel slightly uncomfortable about the concept, as though we are somehow using someone for our own professional gain.  Through our work with clients at Mazars and our own experience, we can see that post-COVID-19, working habits have reinforced artificial or contrived perceptions of networking.  Many employees have lost the appetite to network effectively and it can be difficult to mobilise people to re-engage with their existing network and forge new connections in-person.   Just as those connections become even more important in a physically disconnected professional environment, it is key that people invest now in re-establishing and developing their networks in a meaningful way.  Unlocking your network effectively in a post-COVID-19 world could be the key to deeper engagement with colleagues, faster career development and more enjoyable working environments and relationships.  Benefits of networking A strong professional network can be a powerful asset in your career development, playing a critical role in progression, professional opportunities, and making work more enjoyable. Building a network is about relationships with colleagues, bosses, friends, industry colleagues or connections.  Your network isn’t just the relationships you have nurtured over time with friends and colleagues. It also includes more distant relationships and connections with thought leaders, business leaders, and “infrequent contacts”, such as casual acquaintances, and people you have met at conferences.  While not necessarily as close, these connections can be an invaluable part of your network and often possess information or links that can grow your reach and opportunity to learn.  This network, of both close and looser ties, developed over the course of your career, can support greater job mobility, while also being beneficial for employment opportunities, career progression and rewards. Top networking tips Developing a network or networking is not simply about attending conferences and events to “sell” yourself professionally.  Growing a network is about relationship building, developing trust and engaging with the needs and interests of the people you meet and connect with.  To help you enhance this network, especially if you find the process intimidating, here are some useful ideas to consider:  Networking as learning Developing a network is not about gaining connections immediately. Like any relationship, it takes time to develop trust and understanding. Therefore, considering networking as a learning exercise in which we engage is important. Understanding people’s “currencies” Different people are motivated and engaged in different ways. Allan R. Cohen and David L. Bradford, the organisation psychologists known for their work about the power of influencing, wrote extensively on understanding people’s currencies, in order to be able to influence others without authority. Their work identified five primary currencies:  Tasks Position Inspiration Relationship  Personal These five “currencies” can help us identify areas for potential collaboration with other people, develop our networks, and deepen our relationships with others. Networking to get ahead Building your network is just as much about those outside your organisation as it is about your colleagues inside the organisation. One Cornell University study on networking found a correlation between a person’s ability to engage with internal network and their professional opportunities.  In the study, lawyers whose personal views of networking were positive ended with more billable hours and greater choice over the projects they wished to work on, than their colleagues who were less inclined to network.  In essence, those who engage colleagues, make connections and put themselves forward—i.e., those willing and able to develop their personal networks—were more successful in their careers.  Overcoming your fear There is a great opportunity for employers to support and encourage employees to network.  Julia Hobsbawm, author of The Nowhere Office, has, for example, promoted the idea of a Chief Networks Officer (CNO) as a means for organisations to put focus and energy into ensuring that employees are getting the most value out of their connections. Hobsbawm says: “Really, the office is going to be good for two things—social networks and learning. Because people have been out of the office, the last thing you want  to do is to send them to a conference.” Putting networks, and networking, at the C-Suite level would send a clear message to employees and customers alike about the importance of relationships, consistent engagement, chance encounters and stretch projects or developmental opportunities that come from our direct and indirect network.  Sonya Boyce is HR and Organisational Development Consulting Director with Mazars in Ireland You can read this article and more about your career in accountancy in the Accountancy Ireland Career Guide 2023.

Your personal brand is a definer of success in your career and the most visible marker of you and what you stand for. Veronica Canning explains why My definition of a personal brand is, “what people say about you when you leave the room”. It’s not what you say it is. It’s what others say it is—what others say about you. You know what I mean. Usually, the description is short, pointed and deadly accurate. Irish people are good with words, and there’s none better when putting someone down. So, your personal brand is not what you say it is. It’s what others say it is. It is also a definer of success in your career as it is the most visible marker of you and what you stand for and, as such, it offers you the chance to take control of what people say about you in a corporate setting.  It can give you a distinct advantage in having an active input into building your career. Listen well the next time you hear the side comments after a meeting, especially when someone has been upset.  How many times have you sat in a room and heard someone being written off with one sentence, or heard someone else being damned with faint praise? Whether or not you believe you have a brand, such comments constitute it.  Think of the most memorable descriptions that you have heard. Remember that a similar comment could be attached to you. Often admiration is expressed in few words, like: ‘rising star’, ‘jet-propelled’, ‘one to watch’, ‘born gentleman’, or ‘straight as a die’. Everyone has a personal brand. It’s not something you can opt out of. It is inevitable, but the good news is that you can control whether yours is ‘purposeful’ or ‘accidental’.  A crucial point is that what your brand looks and feels like is up to you! I believe that when you take control of all aspects of your personal brand, you craft a purposeful one that is authentic and is an integral part of your career plan.  In addition, a purposeful brand is considerably more likely to be a positive one, as you will see as you read on. I often say this to audiences when speaking at conferences, and I see the odd sceptical face, but when I ask them if their personal brand is accidental or purposeful, the scepticism disappears.  They move to questioning which kind of personal brand they have. It is an enlightening moment when you realise that every day people are interacting with you and judging you by your appearance, accent, behaviours, moods and by your impact on them.  If you are unaware of this and just do and say what you want, as you want, without reference to those around you, you definitely do not have a purposeful personal brand. Exploring your personal brand begins with these four hard-core truths: 1. You are at the centre of your personal brand The number one truth is that you are at the centre of your personal brand. It is built on you and your values, it emanates from you, it is played out by your behaviours.  For it to succeed and contribute to your development it must be authentic. You may think you can fake it like the person who asks everyone how they are and wants to look like they care, but then rosters them on long hours, or ignores requests to take leave for important occasions like weddings and funerals.  They fake that they are good people managers and care about their staff, but their deeds show that all they care about is results. You may be good at faking it, but believe me, others will eventually see the real you.  The inconsistency between the two is surprisingly visible to observers. It is often given away in subliminal ways and expressed as a feeling or intuition.  There is a dissonance, and observers catch it. Someone will express a fear that the person “is not all they seem to be”, or “there is something off about that person” and the result is an accidental brand, not a purposeful one. 2. You are in charge of your personal brand You create your brand daily, and you are responsible for it. Every action you take further defines it. It is vital that you realise that it is not an optional extra that you may get to later, when you are happy, wealthy and wise.  It is a big part of you now, at this moment. There is no point blaming your colleagues or your boss if you are in difficulty at work. You are a key player in your own drama.  Often, when I work with people who hate their job and everyone they work with, they see the answer as leaving so they can start afresh in a new place.  I always remind them that the unfortunate reality is that they take themselves with them to the new job. It’s far too easy to blame everyone else when you are the problem. 3. It is your single biggest transportable asset As people move away from having a job for life, or being a ‘lifer’ in one company, and move to having a career made up of different parts–jobs, periods of transition, breaks for education or childcare and, increasingly, periods of unemployment–your brand becomes your most valuable transportable asset.  In an increasingly fluid workplace, you have to move to a ‘portfolio’ approach to your career. You are the only constant as you move through a career spanning decades.  You therefore need to concentrate on imagining yourself as a little enterprise, ‘You Incorporated’, with unique skills, competencies and a personal brand. 4. It is a vibrant, evolving part of you The core ‘you’ remains more or less the same, but your confidence, experience, self-knowledge, projection and the extent of your fame changes.  You will not have the same personal brand as a mid-level executive as, later, a successful senior executive – at least I hope you won’t. The key message is that you have a brand at every stage, and as you learn from your mistakes, you will continuously adjust it. The great thing about getting older is that although you keep making mistakes, they are different ones, and you avoid repeating the disasters of the earlier part of your career.   Veronica Canning is a motivational speaker executive mentor and consultant, and author of Your Brand: Advance your Career by Building a Personal Brand You can read this article and more about your career in accountancy in the Accountancy Ireland Career Guide 2023.

Getting ahead in a new organisation requires planning, commitment and a willingness to be seen and heard. David Manifold, CFO of eShopWorld, explains how to do it right The best advice I can give young professionals on how to hit the ground running in a new job is to ensure you put the right plan in place before your start date.  Having grown from a headcount of 350 to over 1,000 in three short years at eShopWorld, I’ve seen first-hand how putting a strong plan in place before their start date has really benefited some of our new hires.  This plan should clearly detail your goals and objectives, broken out over the short-, medium- and long-term.  These goals, and the timeline you put in place, must be realistic, and you should be prepared to revisit and update your plan on a regular basis as you continue your journey through the organisation. Identify the key stakeholders in the organisation. During your induction, ask for one-to-one time with these decision-makers. This will help you to gain an understanding of the business as a whole.  Today’s accountant needs to have a wide breadth of knowledge when it comes to the dynamics of an organisation and, indeed, the wider industry in which it operates. You need this to perform your role in guiding future strategic direction.  Taking the right insights from decision-makers at all levels of the business can provide a goldmine of valuable information. One critical piece of advice I have here is to take the time you need reflect on what this information means and to form your own ideas and conclusions. This will give you a strong basis for determining your own career trajectory within the organisation.  Time and again, I see candidates rush into a new role with bundles of enthusiasm, and ideas they haven’t fully thought through. Unfortunately, this can have consequences. First impressions are important in winning stakeholders over.  I would encourage people to take at least three months of this induction period to muse and reflect on the insights they’ve gathered, and perhaps socialise draft ideas with some of the key stakeholders they have identified, before bringing them to the wider organisation.  This will give you a sound foundation on which to build ideas that could genuinely impact the business and set you on the right path for progression. So, by now you have your plan with your goals and objectives, and you’ve committed to updating the plan as you progress. To help keep you on track, I would highly recommend scheduling in formal one-to-ones with your manager at the outset. You will need this in order to gauge your progress and performance and keep track of where you’re going.  If this isn’t standard practice in your organisation, do it yourself. This will demonstrate a willingness to accept feedback (both good and bad!) and, in my view, huge initiative. Asking your manager to commit time to supporting your personal development is equally important for the wider organisation. I’ve seen first-hand the benefits, from a company perspective, of devoting resources to helping employees grow and develop, beyond their immediate contribution to wider business goals. Giving employees a sense of ownership is key to embedding the right mindset and culture in an organisation. Starting any new position at any time in your career is often challenging. Everyone will have those familiar feelings of trepidation, but, for young professionals with less experience, it can be especially daunting.   Putting a plan in place with support from your manager can really help to lessen the impact of the learning curve, and separate you from the pack. Stick with it, commit—and, above all, good luck! David Manifold is Chief Financial Officer with eShopWorld (ESW), the global e-commerce company founded in Dublin. ESW offers a range of in-country cross-border solutions, which allow global brands and retailers to localise their online offering in markets all over the world. Prior to joining ESW in 2019, David managed the group finance function at Oasis Group and spent close to a decade with Aer Lingus as Director of Integration and Corporate Strategy. He is a Fellow of Chartered Accountants Ireland and holds an MBA. Setting goals for career progression Having a clear picture of what you want from your career is key to realising your ambitions, writes Caroline Frawley Goal setting is a huge part of my life. I am a big believer in writing down goals, putting in the work and being conscious of what I want to achieve. When it comes to new career opportunities, having a clear idea of what you want is a great tool when beginning a job search.  Making a wish list of your dream jobs can really help you target your search and narrow down and identify what you want.  You can go into as much detail as you want, including factors such as: Organisation The size of the business – Would you like to work for a multinational, a large Irish business or do you prefer being in the heart of a growing SME with exposure to all facets of the business? Progression opportunities What is your medium to long term plan? Would you like to be able to grow in your next role? Leader Who are the type of leaders that inspire you? Location How do you envisage your commute? Would you like a role closer to home? Is fully remote something you would consider or would you prefer to be onsite with more day-to-day interaction? Salary Is a jump in salary extremely important, or is finding the right role or getting a foot in the door of a particular organisation more important? Work life balance  We all want it, where does it rank in your priorities? Environment What type of office would you like to work in?  Can you see yourself sitting in the heart of a manufacturing facility or would you prefer a Shared Services Centre or a company’s headquarters? Skillset Do you want to continue using the skills within your current area of expertise or would you like to pivot into a new area? Flexibility What does flexibility mean to you? Is a job where you can work from home for some of your week crucial in your next move? Team Who are the type of people you want to spend the majority of your week collaborating with? Non-runners Are there any things that you don’t want in your next move? Not every role will tick all the boxes, but having a wish list will help narrow down your non negotiables.  This list can be really useful whether you are working with a recruiter or applying for roles directly.  It’s likely this list will evolve over time as you review different job specs and start the interview process across different businesses. And you never know, you might be one of the lucky ones, and a year from now, you might realise you have manifested your dream job. Caroline Frawley ACA works with Barden’s Mid-Senior Accounting Team, supporting accounting professionals in Munster You can read this article and more about your career in accountancy in the Accountancy Ireland Career Guide 2023.

Starting a new role with a new organisation can be daunting, but you should embrace  the challenge and plan ahead to hit the ground running, writes Pamela Fay “Will I fit in and belong here?” For most candidates starting a new role with a new employer, this question will be top of mind.   You may be apprehensive about how best to understand and define your role in relation to the wider organisation, or you may be preoccupied with ‘culture fit’. Will you be a good fit in terms of the work you will be expected to do, the way you will be expected to work, and your traits and values? You’ll be thinking (probably quite a lot) about the projects and tasks you will be working on, and the people you will be working with.  All of this is normal and natural—and believe it or not, you can start to prepare for any uncertainties or challenges that might lie ahead long before you join the organisation. Your starting point is to go about finding out as much information as you can about the organisation in advance. Do your research Context is incredibly important when you’re about to take on a new role with different people in an unfamiliar culture and environment.  You want to find out what day-to-day life is like. Many Chartered Accountants will be joining big firms and these firms will have their own stated way of doing things—i.e. their values and what they say they do. In all organisations, however, there are also hidden systems.  You need to know what time you are expected to be at your desk, for example, what the accepted dress code is, and the extent to which you can work from locations outside the office, if at all. To get ahead of these questions, I would recommend reaching out to any existing connections you might have to people already employed at the organisation, either directly or via their extended network.  Find out what day-to-day working life is going to be like and research your team—who will you be working alongside and reporting to?  What is acceptable and encouraged in terms of communication style and presentation? What’s frowned upon? Listen and learn Your first six weeks in any new job is a time for observation. You shouldn’t really be aiming to do anything radical, or cause a stir, during this period.  Instead take the time to talk to your new colleagues, join them for tea or coffee, attend all the meetings you are invited to. In short: listen and learn.  It can take a long time to find out how an organisation functions, and you need to understand your role in the organisation, and what you are being asked to do.  You should be curious. Do as much research as possible, and ask as many questions as you can (never be afraid of appearing stupid), and take any support you’re offered. Appear, behave, communicate When it comes to the impression we make in the workplace, I always come back to the ‘ABC’. This is how you appear at work, how you behave, and how you communicate.  How you appear If you wear a suit on your first day, you need to wear a suit all the time. The team around you needs to know what impression you will be putting forward both within and outside the organisation. How you behave This is about how you conduct yourself at work. Are you behaving in a way that leads others to believe you are responsible, conscientious and empathetic? Are you polite and respectful of other’s views and contributions? Do you turn up, or log in, to meetings on time? Are you actively demonstrating that your are trustworthy and reliable? How you communicate Some people respond to emails quite quickly. Others don’t. Really, it doesn’t matter which category you fall into. What matters is that you are consistent. Nobody is perfect For many people, the thought of putting a foot wrong in the early stages of a new role will be a worry.  No one wants to get off to a bad start, but it’s also important to remember that we can almost always recover.  If you make a mistake, own up to it and face the consequences.  Look for support when you need it, chat to family and friends about what went wrong, and don’t try to handle the situation alone.  Colleagues may also be able to help you out because they’ve already ‘been there, done that’.  If your problems run deeper, however—if you’re not happy with your boss, for example, or you don’t share the same values as the people you are working with, you may need to start considering your next move. Trading places My mother had some great advice. She used to say, ‘never get stuck in a corner’.  If you’re unhappy with your role with an organisation, take your time before you make any definite decisions.  Don’t get cornered. If you decide that it would be best to move on, leave on your own terms. Again, this comes back to my earlier advice about doing your research.  An extra couple of weeks in a role you may not be enjoying is nothing compared to moving on to another role you may later regret. Life is all about learning and, really, it comes back to that saying ‘short-term pain for long-term gain’.  In my own career, I once took a job I wasn’t suited to. I stayed in that role for a year, but during that time, I was also actively looking for new career opportunities.  I realised pretty quickly that the organisation I was working for wasn’t going to change, so it was up to me to bring about the change I needed. Find your tribe Even if you’re happy with your new organisation, you may still find that you’re not getting the chance to fully utilise your skills in the role itself. In this situation, it’s a good idea to think about how these skills might be deployed in the wider organisation-in collaboration with another team or department, for example, or as part of a specific project. Seek out, take and create opportunities to showcase your abilities and demonstrate how you can add value to the organisation. Remember, different teams will work in different ways.  I’m a big believer in getting into an organisation you want to work for and then assessing your situation six months or a year in.  By then, if you have the sense that you would be better suited to another part of the organisation, you may be able to make the case to switch teams and take on different responsibilities.  Teams and team dynamics play a crucial role in how we experience our working lives.  Even if we enjoy the work we are doing, we need to feel valued within our team, and to be able to trust, rely on, and draw inspiration from our team-mates.  This is especially true for Chartered Accountants, who are often required to work very hard under severe time pressure. Support, camaraderie and teamwork really matters.  Recommended reading In her book Working Identity: Unconventional Strategies for Reinventing Your Career, author Herminia Ibarra outlines an active process of career reinvention. Ibarra’s approach leverages three ways of “working identity”.  These include: experimenting with new professional activities; interacting in new networks of people; and making sense of what is happening to us in light of emerging possibilities. Pamela Fay is an executive coach, coach supervisor and owner of Business Performance Perspectives You can read this article and more about your career in accountancy in the Accountancy Ireland Career Guide 2023.

Nailing your job interview comes down to preparation, presentation and delivery. Michelle Byrne outlines the golden rules to help you succeed on the day When you’re looking for a job, always remember that, while your CV gets you the interview for the job, it’s the interview that will get you the job itself. When we’re hiring someone new into a firm like Deloitte, it’s crucial that they are the right fit for our firm. Skills and experience are important, but we also want to find out what motivates you—your passions, interests, and hobbies—and how they can make an impact within a firm like Deloitte, and with our clients.  If you have travelled a lot, for example, this tells us that you have had different cultural experiences, and you could potentially bring these experiences with you to your new role if we decide to hire you. Here are some traps to avoid and tips to help you get ahead at interview and increase your chances of getting that new job: DON’T oversell yourself Honesty and integrity are crucial. The interviewer will soon discover if your story doesn’t match your CV and, remember, the interviewer will ask you questions based on the information contained in your CV. Your answers should be specific and include examples that demonstrate what drives you as a person and showcase your skillset.  If you worked as part of a team, explain how you contributed as an individual, rather than taking personal credit for the team’s achievements.  DON’T be vague Prepare a good opener and a strong closer for your interview. First and last impressions matter.  When your interviewer concludes by asking you if there is anything more you want to know about the organisation, use the opportunity to talk about your ambitions.   Don’t ask an obvious question when the answer is already available on the organisation’s website. At Deloitte, we’re looking for people who have ambition to grow and pursue their passions through their work.  Remember, your interview is your opportunity to ask questions about your potential employer, so don’t be afraid to challenge the interviewer.  Don’t give the interviewer answers you think they want to hear. Give them the answers that demonstrate the power of your story. DON’T be nervous You have been called for this interview because, on paper, you look fantastic. We always encourage our candidates to relax to ensure their confidence shines through.  If you don’t appear to be confident in your own abilities, the interviewer is going to find it difficult to decide if you are the right fit for the organisation. At the same time, try not to be too over-rehearsed. I want to know about you, who you are, where you are from, and what you do in your spare time.  You don’t want to be too informal, but when you are doing an interview, you are having a conversation with the interviewer as you tell your story.  DO nail the basics Never neglect the basics when you’re interviewing for a new role. How you present yourself, and your body language during the interview, are both very important. Your interviewer will form an opinion of you quickly.  If your interview is in-person, your initial handshake will be very telling—and you must be engaging: use direct eye contact at all times and don’t forget your posture.  If you sit in a very rigid position, it can make it difficult for the interviewer to build up rapport with you during the interview, so pay attention to this. And you can never be too overdressed when you are interviewing for a professional role. Dress neatly and professionally. DO prepare thoroughly Once you’ve been invited to interview, it’s important to do your homework in advance so that you know and understand the firm you want to work with, its values and business drivers. If I’m interviewing you, I will want to see how you can demonstrate the impact you can bring to our firm. Equally, I will want to know what you want us to give you as your potential employer, and what you value among colleagues and team leaders. It’s a good idea to do a mock interview with a friend before your formal interview—not your best friend, but someone you would be a little bit nervous sharing your life story with.  This will help you to relax on the day of the interview and also to anticipate questions that may take you outside your comfort zone. DO build a rapport  You know there will be other candidates for the job on offer, who will have excellent qualifications and experience, but your interview is your chance to shine and set yourself apart. Try to build a rapport with your interviewer. Ideally, they should leave the encounter feeling that they know you as a person, and that your story has made an impact on them.  You will have demonstrated that you share the organisation’s core values and purpose, and that you will help to drive the organisation forward. Michelle Byrne is a Partner in Audit and Assurance, leading the Financial Reporting Advisory team at Deloitte Ireland You can read this article and more about your career in accountancy in the Accountancy Ireland Career Guide 2023. The interview process has changed massively as a result of the pandemic and interviews are now being held both remotely and in-person.  At Deloitte, we operate a fully hybrid model, so it’s important for candidates to be prepared to shine in both scenarios. Remote interviews are particularly attractive for employers who want to employ candidates based overseas, but we shouldn’t underestimate the significance of the in-person experience.  If you think you can make a bigger impact in person, there is no harm in asking to be interviewed face-to-face. Remember, there will also be different stages to the interview, however. While your initial interview may be done remotely, the second interview will often take place in person.